Tuesday, February 01, 2011

Nuncio lambasts bishops

This appeared on the NLM blog today. Unfortunately the Nuncio in question is not our new man in Wimbledon but the Nuncio to the Antilles Islands, H.E. Most Rev Thomas Gullickson.

Why, even three years after the issuance of Summorum Pontificum (just to name one example), are well-meaning lay folk still treated with such great disdain by no less than bishops, bishops in communion (of heart, soul, mind and strength?) with the Successor of St. Peter when they ask for Mass in Latin? Is this anything other than blind hypocrisy (the plank!)? You tolerate no small amount of bad taste, bad music and caprice, while begrudging some few a port in the storm of liturgical abuse which seems not to want to subside? Can we be after His own Heart and not just claim to be members of Christ’s Body while still acting so at odds with the example set by the Holy One of God, meek and humble of heart? Such prelates are at counter or cross purposes to the sense in which the Church wants to go; they are ignoring what the Spirit is saying to the Churches and doing so with a backhand to some who are branded common and contemptible, but certainly not in the eyes of Christ... Let me say it more clearly! My issue is with the contempt shown for an outstretched hand, contempt such as would not be shown toward someone asking for some other benefit.

When the Holy Father speaks of his will to see these two forms of the Roman Rite (ordinary and extraordinary) enrich each other, when he and others express eagerness for a recovery of the sense of the sacred in our churches and in how we worship, I am convinced that he has indicated the true nature of the rupture which has indeed occurred and needs to be mended or healed. You would think that those in communion with the Pope would seek to understand him and embrace his point of view. There is too much room for caprice and hence the need to reform contemporary Catholic worship. This is evidenced time and again, by way of one example, in the sense of helplessness many priests experience when confronted by musical groups moving into church with inappropriate repertoires, not to mention the dance and puppet troupes which should have been banished long ago. If a bishop does not want to discipline at least he can respect and foster those seeking good order.
Well said Archbishop Gullickson!!
The full text of this homily can be found here.

26 comments:

David O'Neill said...

Let us hope the Bishops' Conference has this hardhitting comment brought to their notice.

Well Said, Indeed said...

When our bishops want to tell us something they send out a pastoral letter to be read in all churches. Wouldn't it be wonderful if this is a pastoral letter from Rome that nuncios will have to read out in the country for which they have rsponsibility. Let us hope that our new man from Moscow will be of similar steel when he eventually takes up his post and does not go native like too many nuncios in recent years.

Crouchback said...

All the Bishops of the world are relatively educated men, university graduates the vast majority...???

How many brain cells does one need to recognise that the mass in just about 100% of parishes has been a damned disgrace for decades....???

The greatest thing that ever happened in this regard was the Internet....the message has been out there for at least the last 5 years.....well before Summorum Pontificum....and even much further back if you were fortunate enough to read Christian Order and other Traditionalist outlets......but still in my part of England it is more than an hours drive to get to a real mass, instead of the weak lilly livered mass, that has destroyed the Church in the whole world.

Crouchback said...

We shouldn't need the Nuncio to point out the bloody obvious....should we...???

Seeker said...

The Archbishop seems to be suggesting that awareness and experience of the EM would have the effect of bringing the OF Mass back to what it should be. I was at a Solemn Weekday Mass in Westminster Cathedral during the week, and that I think is exactly the experience His Grace was thinking of. It was everything a Mass should be.

Crouchback said...

Seeker....I'm sorry but if the mass you were at ...."Was everything a Mass should be"......then it would have been a Tridentine Mass.

No disrespect, but fudging the issue will not wash.....wait and see how many priests use the new Translation of the missal when it comes. One priest I've talked to briefly, said, that the new translation was cumbersome...and if they want us to say that why not just tell us to use Latin..??? You see the trouble.....they don't want to change from the disaster that we have got right now....even slight changes in the English....they have got huge amount of egg dripping from their faces, because they listened to every Loony and nuisance in every diocese for years.

Now we are living in a totally wrecked church, my age group 52, have known nothing but disruption all our lives, and we are left with a majority of priests who are good for nothing but mouthing soft platitudes and dressing up in silly vestments.

Are there any videos of the masses during Pope John Paul II visit to Britain in 1982.....I could do with a laff....

Seeker said...

Crouchback, I respect your opinion, but I have experience of the old Mass, and whilst it has its place, it is not the way forwards in my opinion. I am with the Pope and the Nuncio in the post in thinking that solemnity, reverence and tradition are valuable and desperately needed to moderate and revive the experience of the Mass, but ultimately the reform happened, and was a good thing. It now needs to be tightened up, and the abuses removed. If you've not attended the weekday solemn Mass at the Cathedral (ideally preceded by vespers) I suggest you do so, with an open mind. I can only say that it was one of the most enriching experiences I have had of a Mass, and in 50yrs of never missing a Sunday, that's saying something.

Crouchback said...

The reform happened and was a good thing....???

Didn't do much good for Ushaw...??

Didn't do much good for Ireland, I was over there last week, a Traditional Holy Ghost father told us that every diocese used to have it's own seminary.....all gone....now they have only about 20 something seminarians for the whole country.....

Sorry Seeker, you're coming across like an Apologist for the disaster, we need root and branch reform....it doesn't have to be difficult. My wife has been hostile to the Traditional Mass for years, but due to Damian Thompsons blog, Fr Z, Fr Ray Blakes blog, Forest Murmurs, Mullier Fortis, Fr Michael Clifton, Fr Tim Finigan and many others, she started going to Traditional Masses about 2 years ago......now she drives from Carlisle to Barnard Castle on a regular basis to attend Fr Elkins mass.....why would she drive over an hour out of her way.....when she could walk to our parish church in 7 minutes...?????

The root and branch reform would consist of Bishops laying on the line what went disastrously wrong after the council.

Admitting that a whole lot of gibberish had been talked and taught on many subjects.

A re catechising of the laity and especially the Priests.......who should all be sent on silent retreats, as many retreats as are required to hammer the message home, preached by the SSPX or other similarly qualified Orders....no tree hugging....no Femi-Nazis wanting their pain felt....and No Charismatics.

And that forthwith all parishes should start using the Traditional Mass, at least on an equal footing with the New Mass, until such times as people can get used to Tradition.....then the New Mass can be binned forever.

5 years tops....no problem.

5 years after that there will be a noticeable increase across the board in vocations and our society as a whole will be seen to start regenerating it's self....no problem.

Nick Pardoe said...

I think it is a disgrace that your wife drives so far for what you would describe as a 'real'Mass! What is this madness? The Mass is the Mass is the Mass! The OF is no less of a Mass.
it is a disgrace that the likes of
Damian Thompsons blog, Fr Z, Fr Ray Blakes blog, Forest Murmurs, Mullier Fortis, Fr Michael Clifton, Fr Tim Finigan have turned the latin Mass into something eliteist

David O'Neill said...

Say it like it is, why don't you Crouchback!!!
I have to say that I agree with lots of what you say except looking to the SSPX. To change anything you have to be on the inside &, for me, the SSPX went outside the ballpark when they became schismatic.
We have other Orders to help us. In this country we can turn to the FSSP or ICKSP or (even better) to our own priests like Fr Elkin, Fr Brown, Fr Swales & Fr Dickson. They know what is right &, given the solid backing of our diocesan hierarchy, could soon put our priests back on the straight & narrow.
We all, at times, attend OF Masses & some are good - like those celebrated by the above mentioned priests - & I know a few priests other than them to whose OF Masses I can go happily. This is mainly because they don't add or change the Mass. I sometimes wonder if, by making changes, some Masses are licit.
The Mass is the Mass is the Mass but given a choice, make mine EF

Crouchback said...

Nick.....there is a vast difference in the two Masses.....once your used to the Traditional Mass.....any sane person would start driving long distances to keep away from the Vatican II mass.

There is an area of a certain city which most people would class as impoverished....my wife also attends mass there, so do I on occasions. We are on cup of tea after mass terms with the small Traditionalist back bone who attend the Traditional Mass there......

The thing is, every time I go I see more and more "ordinary parishioners"....not Latin Mass regulars, the type of people one would assume the Bishops have in mind when they say that nobody will understand what's going on....

What's going on is as Pope Paul VI famously said is..."The Auto destruction of the Church"...

The Mass is the Mass.....but the Mass is not dancing bears or foaming at the mouth Charismatics.....or Bishops caught like rabbits in the head lights....waiting for the Pope to die, so that they can nurse the Diocese back to sleep for another 40 years

Seeker said...

Fr. Brown may be able to confirm this, but I seem to remember that one of the duties of a Catholic is to support their local parish community, both in attendence and in practical/financial ways. I don't agree with all that is done in my parish, but it is my parish so I support it.

The blog article points out the view of the Nuncio, and as far as I am aware the Pope, that tradition should inform and inspire the present and future, NOT that we freeze everything in aspic.

Crouchback said...

Keep up Seeker for goodness sake....

I'm unemployed right now, according to the parish bulletin I put in 10 times the average contribution of our parish to the "Place" I attended mass on Sunday last.

In our Parish we still can't buy the Catholic Herald....want to know why...???? because the Magic Circle had a hissy fit about an article written by Alice Thomas Ellis years ago saying something ghastly about Archbishop Worlock....

How is our parish going to get me back on a regular basis when they are still fighting.... ( and not even out in the open , a sly little secret war, that I only learned about recently )..... over silly things like that...??? I ask you, how petty can they go.

How are such people to be trusted to give us the Real Mass....you don't like the word real....that's because you don't attend one often enough.....and when you do....you bring all your prejudices with you.

Practice makes perfect....is your priest practising the new missal yet.....turning his back to the people, dreaming of the great unwashed coming to mass and putting 10 times the usual stipend on the plate...????

Well as long as he's not saying the Traditional Mass....don't bother him....let him slumber on, it's the only charitable thing to do......I'll take my poor stipend to where it can do more good ...."For the Greater Church"....as the Pope put it recently.

I don't want to freeze anything in aspic....just the Vatican II mass chucked in the bin....waste of time doing anything else with it

Crouchback said...

I forgot to mention....I change the light bulbs in our parish....the deal is free light bulbs, and scaffold to get up to them.....and the priest gets to read mu scurrilous e-mails...can't get more practical than that.

Seeker said...

Ubi caritas et amor, Deus ibi est.
Simul ergo cum in unum congregamur:
Ne nos mente dividamur, caveamus.
Cessent iurgia maligna, cessent lites.
Et in medio nostri sit Christus Deus.

Fr Michael Brown said...

Seeker, canon 1262 says the faithful are to support the work of the Church through collections. It doesn`t say you have to support your own parish but the Church in general. While I agree a Mass is a Mass if that was the end of it there wouldn`t be a Summorum Pontificum. The nuncio here draws attention to the abuses that seem endemic. His point is well made and I for one was glad to hear a bishop speak like this. Of course I have no wish to impose the EF on anyone who doesn`t like it but what I can`t abide is those in authority making it difficult for those who have a legitimate desire to enjoy the benefits of SP to do so. Or for that matter to make it difficult for priests who draw spiritual strength from the EF to be able to celebrate it and deliberately to put obstacles in their way. We need a few more like this nuncio to bring home to people that things have changed in the Church since 2007 and the EF is a thoroughly legitimate part of everyday Catholic life amd is here to stay.

Crouchback said...

Whatever you say Seeker....and that's more or less what ++Vin said at Lourdes last year....actually I'm having a go at learning Latin....though there's not much call for Kickeroh on an oil rig....The beauty of the Traditional Mass is that it's great in Latin...or on the other side of the page in English...

One of the many tragedies of the failed Vatican II mass is that even though you can follow the priest word for word as he speaks....or shouts through a microphone....nine times out of ten it's like getting prayed at by Lily Savage....and then you get to join in the "songs"... Go on patronise me, further by belting out...."Our God Reigns"

It's crap, we have no seminarians, we are financially on a wing and a prayer....and we've lost 75% of the nominal congregations since the late 60's.....and the Bishops are STILL dragging their feet....

Answer me this, the Bishops are dragging their feet in getting every parish a Latin mass....

Cui Bono

Crouchback said...

I just fell off my chair...!!!

Maybe it's the drink...O tempora...O mores.....

Or was that a twitch on a golden thread....!!!!

Crouchback said...

Seeker, have you seen this...???

This is what happens in the real world when things go wrong....and people try to stick slavishly to the party line.....

O tempora fugit.....and I've got even more beer to drink before Bedfordshire.....

Bottoms up...must check out the Latin for that.



http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/jamesdelingpole/100074475/how-the-bbcs-roger-harrabin-was-ensnared-by-his-own-tangled-web/

Crouchback said...

Seeker, have you read the link above from James Delingpole's blog at the Telegraph....????

I've just re-read it....you could take out all the bits about the weather and climate.....then fill in the gaps with Traditional Mass....Vatican II.....the Bishops Magic Circle.....all singing and dancing masses.....and of course CRISIS .... DENIERS.....where would we be without them...????

There is no crisis....God wills that we should live in a blasted out church....God wills that the Nuns shall dress in M&S dowdy outfits, and never attract young women.....God wills that Ushaw shall be torched rather than give it to the SSPX or someone who could make it work ....If only God could WILL our useless Bishops be sent to Antarctica to study frosty weather or something....all we have to do is sit like dummy's till Bishop Fellay stages a coup and takes command....?????

The sooner the better.

Father Gary Dickson said...

It would be difficult to comment on the comments to this post, so let me simply say this. Of course the Mass is the Mass is the Mass, but the liturgy –the words and actions which surround the Sacramental moment of the Consecration –differs greatly between the EF and OF. Both ought to reflect the solemnity and awe of that Sacramental moment where God meets man; where heaven unites with earth; where Christ’s death and resurrection are made present to us as a thanksgiving propitiation before the Father, but in the opinion of many the OF is too minimalist in this regard. Add to this the irregularities which are endemic in the celebration of the OF and one can easily appreciate why the EF is so loved and valued by so many of all ages. I believe the OF needs reforming: restoration of the Offertory Prayers and of the genuflections being the essential, along with a silent Canon which is, after all, addressed to the Father and not to the people. Such silence is biblically delivered to us: “The Lord is in His temple; let all earth keep silence before Him” –Hab.2v20. That said, and though I am not well versed in Latin, we really ought to follow the mind of the Council Fathers who decreed that it be retained along with Gregorian chant. While reform of the liturgy has indeed happened, it was not the Reform envisaged by the Council, something Bishops the world over are now humbly recognising and insistently pleading to have implemented.

Crouchback said...

Fr Gary said....it was not the Reform envisaged by the Council, something Bishops the world over are now humbly recognising and insistently pleading to have implemented.

Well you could have fooled me Father..?? even in place where we do have the Traditional Mass, the bishops usually make sure that the mass is tacked onto the parish time table, ie a parish with a low turn out....that will be all of them..?? will have say a 9 o'clock mass and a 11.30 mass on a Sunday....if the priest wants to say the Traditional mass generally they don't ...OR ...CAN'T.... just make one Tridentine and the other OF....no that would be far too simple....the Traditional mass would mean an extra mass, at say 2 o'clock.

This is the level of pettiness we are seeing all over the country, so it is policy....not the particular whim of an eccentric Bishop

Apart from that....the OF....is shot, it's damaged goods....and who damaged it...??? I's "Producer" the alleged Freemason Archbishop Bugninni obviously, the Popes and Fathers of the Church for accepting shoddy goods. The Bishops for letting scandalous masses take place in all their parishes. The priests for acting like idiots......and most of all.....the Lay people....why does anyone want to sit through the drivel served up in your average parish...???

How many take part in parish life, but in a robotic state...???

If you asked at the door of your church how many would be able to tell you what Summorum Pontificum was...???....or Humane Vitae...???

It's got to go...it's rubbish...and it won't do....

Seeker said...

Father Brown, I think we agree on rather a lot here. My point is that the ordinary form is perfectly capable of being said reverently and solemnly and of being a trancendent experience (and lets remind ourselves that it's quite happily said in Latin). Crouchback seems to imply that all OF Masses are abuses, that's clearly not the case. I have more experience of the EF than he gives me credit for. I agree (strongly!) with the need to suppress abuses of liturgy, but I believe that for the vast majority of Catholics a properly celebrated OF Mass is what will take the Church forwards.

I do apologise to Crouchback for saying this as it will no doubt give him another attack of the vapours. I trust he will appreciate that my opinion is as useful as his, and forgive me.

Fr Michael Brown said...

Seeker I`m sure we do agree on many things and while on a practical level; the OF `done properly` will have the most influence on most Catholics, as the nuncio points out the tide of liturgical abuse shows little sign of abating. Of course the EF can be said very badly too, mostly by being said at breakneck speed, which could be a problem in the past. However I`m not sure I agree that the OF is the way forward in the long-term. I agree with Fr Dickson that the reform we got was not the reform intended by the Council and there is a lot to be sorted out which will take a very long time. Unfortunately at the current rate of decline we may not have a very long time in North East England.

Crouchback said...

Seeker...I hardly ever get the vapours, blog posts always exaggerate the the person behind the posts, so I apologise if I come across "strong"...I'm the very soul of meekness...Humble too, according to a young girl doing handwriting analysis, whilst selling pens in WH Smith this afternoon.....

Last week I was talking to a 92 year old priest who has only ever said the Traditional Mass, he called the OF "boring" and "slow"...I sometimes struggle to keep the place at traditional masses, but compare the opening of the new mass...Hello Father...Hello everyone...!!!!! I know that isn't in the book...but it's what happens, up rooting these things will take forever....and then what will you be left with....compare the two missals.....there can only ever be one winner

Another priest I talked to several years ago a Vatican II modern hip priest said...."Psalm 43 will never be accepted"...Why...??? Isn't it better than ..."Hello Father"...I've got my own ideas why this priest said that psalm 43 will never be back.....I'd like to know what others think on this..??

1 Judge me, O God, and distinguish my cause from the nation that is not holy : deliver me from the unjust and deceitful man.
2 For thou art God my strength : why hast thou cast me off? and why do I go sorrowful whilst the enemy afflicteth me?

3 Send forth thy light and thy truth : they have conducted me, and brought me unto thy holy hill, and into thy tabernacles.

4 And I will go in to the altar of God : to God who giveth joy to my youth.

5 To thee, O God my God, I will give praise upon the harp : why art thou sad, O my soul? and why dost thou disquiet me? Hope in God, for I will still give praise to him : the salvation of my countenance, and my God.


Beautiful .....

Crouchback said...

Seeker....this weeks news...Last week....I must truly be a prophet of some sort....here are the Oirish Traiters.....sorry I mean priests and their take on the New Translation of the Missal.

The laity can't understand long sentences....??? is but one gem.

Another is they want this document binned for at least 5 years, so they can study it in detail. make recommendations....fart about....and scratch their scrotums...

Shower of useless Irish Bankers.

I wonder how our Bankers will take to it...???

Go on.....give us a clue....????


http://www.associationofcatholicpriests.ie/2011/02/press-conference-on-new-liturgical-texts/