tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35539648.post8781190463071167697..comments2023-10-18T14:53:28.622+01:00Comments on Forest Murmurs: Press Office of the Holy SeeFr Michael Brownhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15320336535138538635noreply@blogger.comBlogger9125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35539648.post-65422628479555147972007-07-13T10:46:00.000+01:002007-07-13T10:46:00.000+01:00Thanks Andrew. I think it was bishop Budd of Plymo...Thanks Andrew. I think it was bishop Budd of Plymouth in an interview with The Universe a few years back who said that the dialogue Mass was the beginning of the road to the Novus Ordo. I agree with him! Another thing I`m not happy with, which was not unknown, was the singing of vernacular hymns during a low Mass. I`ve also seen discussion recently about the licity of concelebration and communion under both kinds for the EF. No doubt extraordinary ministers of Holy Communion, lay readers and altar girls will also have their advocates!Fr Michael Brownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15320336535138538635noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35539648.post-37286811861919923132007-07-13T10:01:00.000+01:002007-07-13T10:01:00.000+01:00Dialogue masses were just a stepping stone for the...Dialogue masses were just a stepping stone for the Novus Ordo. An innovation as you correctly observe Father. Everybody seems to have the absurd notion that the liturgical crisis came straight out of Vatican II, when the very opposite happened. There was much mucking around with the liturgy before (1955 Holy Week "reform", new psalter changes, octaves abolished, etc)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35539648.post-69230113026502544622007-07-12T23:28:00.000+01:002007-07-12T23:28:00.000+01:00Alnwickian, of course I don`t find a sung Mass irr...Alnwickian, of course I don`t find a sung Mass irritating. As the sung Mass is meant to be the normal form of the liturgy then I have no problem at all with people singing their parts of the ordinary. The `dialogue Mass` was a novelty introduced in the 1920`s to allow participation when there was no singing. If the congregation are going to join in the Kyrie, Gloria etc they should sing them: that is what they were designed for. <BR/><BR/>An inaudible Mass of the 1962 missal would be difficult for newcomers. The rubrics make clear which parts of the low Mass are to be said aloud and which inaudibly. Maybe the press office is thinking of those masses such as in monasteries where many low Masses are said at the same time and a low voice is used for the whole Mass. <BR/>I agree a non dialogue low Mass is not the ideal form of liturgy but it does seem to work and in all my years of saying this kind of Mass I have never had any requests for the Mass to be in the dialogue form. I`m sure you`ll find a dialogue Mass somewhere if you want one.Fr Michael Brownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15320336535138538635noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35539648.post-8528169365497649412007-07-12T23:10:00.000+01:002007-07-12T23:10:00.000+01:00Fr MBDoes that mean that you also find 'Sung Mass'...Fr MB<BR/>Does that mean that you also find 'Sung Mass' rather irritating?<BR/><BR/>When did you last celebrate or attend a 'Dialogue Mass'? Indeed when did you last attend a priest and server Low Mass other than as Celebrant?<BR/><BR/>If the Motu Proprio is to attract new people to the Missal of Blessed John XXIII, would you agree that an inaudible Low Mass would be a very tough assignment for a newcomer?Alnwickianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00313935455554823762noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35539648.post-65504502739231036582007-07-12T19:15:00.000+01:002007-07-12T19:15:00.000+01:00Alnwickian it is worth remembering first of all th...Alnwickian it is worth remembering first of all that these comments have no legal weight but are only suggestions by the Vatican Press Office. I don`t see this as an insistance that the `Dialogue Mass` be the norm for Low Mass. Personally I find the `Dialogue Mass` rather irritating.Fr Michael Brownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15320336535138538635noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35539648.post-78722001605157132522007-07-12T18:53:00.000+01:002007-07-12T18:53:00.000+01:00Para. 4 is of particular interest. It looks as if...Para. 4 is of particular interest. It looks as if "Low Mass" according to the Missal of Blessed John XXIII will, after 14 September, be in the form often known as a 'dialogue Mass'. The Low Mass mumbled between priest and serveer will be no more.<BR/><BR/>I am sure you will agree, Father Brown, that if the Motu Proprio is not be derailed, it will be vital for priests who use the Misaal of Blessed John XXIII to be true to these principles, also to the use of the 1962 Missal and not some previous version.Alnwickianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00313935455554823762noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35539648.post-48055772316254876462007-07-12T18:32:00.000+01:002007-07-12T18:32:00.000+01:00In case any priests who wish to learn to say the t...In case any priests who wish to learn to say the traditional Mass are reading this, tuition is being organised at a three day seminar in Oxford on 28th to 30th August.<BR/><BR/> Tuition will be provided by suitably qualified priests with long experience of the old rite. The fee is £40 and details can be obtained from the Latin Mass Society Tel 020 7404 7284.Et Expectohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04273064434098923960noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35539648.post-91372266575552955352007-07-12T09:14:00.000+01:002007-07-12T09:14:00.000+01:00Not only that but 'ad orientum' was never abrogate...Not only that but 'ad orientum' was never abrogated in the promulagation of the Novus Ordo, nor was Latin, nor was Gregorian Chant, nor altar rails.<BR/><BR/>Sometimes it seems as if the hoax of the century has been perpetrated by someone, somewhere so that it now became necessary to give papal endorsement to shock the Bishops, if nobody else, out of their slumber.<BR/><BR/>The proper comparison would be the Mass of John XXIII on the one hand, as opposed to the Novus Ordo, in Latin, celebrated ad orientum toward a high altar, with chant as appropriate and altar rails for communion where communicants would kneel and receive on the tongue. <BR/><BR/>But all we have had to compare the 1962 Mass with has been priest facing, vernacular mass, Anglican Hymns and communion in the hand served by EMHC's. That, of course, is relatively reverent compared to some of the wild abuses we've all heard about. Is it any wonder that the pressure has been coming from serious laity and priests for the Motu Proprio we now have.<BR/><BR/>Those who are now complaining should seriously think about how much their own contribution to the irreverence that has been standard fare has caused this Motu Proprio to become necessary.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35539648.post-7233430894710030192007-07-12T00:29:00.000+01:002007-07-12T00:29:00.000+01:00"The 1962 Missal does not provide for concelebrati..."The 1962 Missal does not provide for concelebration. It says nothing concerning the direction of the altar or of the celebrant (whether facing the people or not)."<BR/><BR/>It didn't need to! Mass had been celebrated 'ad orientum' for centuries and no other setup had ever been seriously suggested. Mass 'ad orientum' was therefore automatically assumed.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10031215425259997299noreply@blogger.com