tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35539648.post2952512800359642209..comments2023-10-18T14:53:28.622+01:00Comments on Forest Murmurs: Bishop released from clerical obligationsFr Michael Brownhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15320336535138538635noreply@blogger.comBlogger9125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35539648.post-11590082852777435572008-08-13T11:56:00.000+01:002008-08-13T11:56:00.000+01:00The WDTPRS link has a discussion of the Irish case...The WDTPRS link has a discussion of the Irish case. Cramner sounds likely a likely candidate for degradation. I`m getting more interested in the whole thing. Maybe that is what I should have written my canon law tesina on!Fr Michael Brownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15320336535138538635noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35539648.post-52100670259599739592008-08-09T22:28:00.000+01:002008-08-09T22:28:00.000+01:00Am I write in thinking that Cranmer was degraded, ...Am I write in thinking that Cranmer was degraded, presumably prompted by the casuistry mentioned by old believer?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35539648.post-14833928858467933392008-08-06T19:40:00.000+01:002008-08-06T19:40:00.000+01:00I'm sure I remember reading that a bishop in Irela...I'm sure I remember reading that a bishop in Ireland in the 19th Century, on the death of his siblings, was permitted by the Pope to return to the lay state so that he could marry and continue his family's line.Pastor in Montehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05949810648656544072noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35539648.post-42063918040021858922008-08-02T13:19:00.000+01:002008-08-02T13:19:00.000+01:00Alas, Dr. Brown, I don't have any immediate refere...Alas, Dr. Brown, I don't have any immediate references to when the degradation ceremonies were last used.<BR/><BR/>I find it an interesting concept to remove the tonsure. Presumably the head is shaved as I cannot imagine sticking some hair back on?<BR/><BR/>The ceremonies clearly reflect a view different to the prevalant one today. At one point in history Rome declared that the tradition of instruments was the essential part of ordination rites (Decree to the Armenians) and I would suspect the degradation ceremonies reflect this.<BR/><BR/>There was also some casuistry about burning hertical clerics. Heretical clerics were reduced to the lay state before burning - presumably burning a layman was considered to be without any theological concerns.<BR/><BR/>I have just had an interesting discussion with an Orthodox cleric and some Orthodox (generally the more 'hard line') consider orders are lost for shaving off a beard. More generally there is a concept that clergy can return to the lay state.<BR/><BR/>I suppose in the case of President-Elect Lugo he was never one for wearing pontificals so a degradation would not be in order. But he could be given a shave?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35539648.post-15559629645892982682008-08-01T14:30:00.000+01:002008-08-01T14:30:00.000+01:00I am confused as to Mr. Lugo's present and future ...I am confused as to Mr. Lugo's present and future status.<BR/><BR/>Sacramentally, he cannot be "unordained". The Sacrament of Ordination leaves an indelible mark on the soul.<BR/> <BR/>Canonically, he (presumably) has forfeited the the right to celebrate the Mass or dispense the sacraments, together with the loss of all eccesiastical titles : Bishop, Father, Rev.<BR/><BR/>But there has been no formal sentence issued by Rome, has there ? That he has received a "dispensation" from Rome sounds a bit vague.<BR/><BR/>And, anyway, does not the Holy See have the power to re-instate him at a later date, or am I wrong about that ?<BR/><BR/>Frankly, I find it rather scandalous.PeterHWrighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08734936083886678494noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35539648.post-82306684923728794152008-08-01T08:13:00.000+01:002008-08-01T08:13:00.000+01:00He did want to return to being a bishop but has be...He did want to return to being a bishop but has been told he can`t. You ae entitled to be shocked as it appears to be the first time it has happened.Fr Michael Brownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15320336535138538635noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35539648.post-91999714728007941322008-07-31T16:14:00.000+01:002008-07-31T16:14:00.000+01:00Does this mean he has chosen power over serving Go...Does this mean he has chosen power over serving God. He may have been chosen by the people to lead Paraguay for five years but was he not chosen by God to lead people via the church for his lifetime. I am totally shocked a Bishop has been given permission to resign. Sounds like he wants the best of both worlds, to be President then return to being a Bishop.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35539648.post-70551618494554236722008-07-30T22:06:00.000+01:002008-07-30T22:06:00.000+01:00According to my pontifical the last part is the re...According to my pontifical the last part is the removal of the tonsure when the cleric also has to divest himself of clerical garb and put on secular clothes. Given that ordination to the priesthood confers a character and can never be removed, some of these ceremonies seem to imply otherwise as in the rubbing of a knife over the hands of priest with the text reading that the power of sanctifying, consecrating and blessing is being removed. Old Believer, do you have any information about when these ceremonies were used and their theological significance?Fr Michael Brownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15320336535138538635noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-35539648.post-69911473793217225262008-07-30T21:45:00.000+01:002008-07-30T21:45:00.000+01:00What a shame the degradatio ceremonies were not em...What a shame the <I>degradatio</I> ceremonies were not employed. I have always wanted to see the stripping away of the pontificalia: the mitre, the book of Gospels, the ring, the crozier, gloves and sandals.<BR/><BR/>But is the chasuble, dalmatic and tunic stripped to? One wonders if the misfortunate cleric is left in his underpants.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com